The Destiny/JonTron debate I'm referencing can be found here.
It wasn't exactly a great debate, but it did bring up many arguments that are frequently repeated and are thus worth addressing. I'll be offering arguments and critiques for both sides, from an alt-right perspective. The theme for this debate will be "Demography is Destiny." (see what I did there?)
It was clear that JonTron was holding back, that he wanted to "hide his powerlevel" and not say things that would get him labeled a racist. Sorry, but this is simply the wrong approach. It is of course possible to skirt around things and play the politicians game, but it takes much more experience and preparation, and it is better to just be honest and direct. If you are afraid of getting labeled racist then you shouldn't be engaging in public debates on race in the first place.
I mean come on, it's 2017. We are beyond opposing "racism" today. It's hard to believe that in the current year, there are still people who deny the biological reality of race. How sad that our educational institutions have failed so many people, that in the year 2017 they still believe in biological and political equality. :\^)
Alright, let's jump right into it!
[1:36] Destiny: "I know you have a very, very large outreach, so you saying these things was a little bit... troubling."
We haven't even started the debate, and already you are resorting to emotional appeals and shaming tactics, suggesting that having and expressing a right-wing opinion is somehow irresponsible or dangerous. Part of the premise behind freedom of speech is that bad ideas can only be defeated by exposing them to public scrutiny, so what is it about freely expressing different points of view that is troubling to you? Are you afraid the idiot public might reach the wrong conclusions without a Leftist telling them how to think?
JonTron: "I don't think it's troubling, I think it's common sense. I think the fact that people find it troubling is troubling. What is it you find so troubling? Let's start there."
JonTron starts off well. This is a good argument, rejecting the burden of an imposed taboo and putting the onus on Destiny to make his case.
[2:27] Destiny: "When I read these sorts of things, I feel it generally boils down to 'I think that this thing is better because it's majority white and I don't want that to change.'"
Well first off, it is obviously better. The fact everyone around the world wants to come to Western nations is evidence of that. We have built incredibly prosperous, safe, and beautiful nations. And it's not like we just FOUND or stumbled upon Western civilization. It was built by Europeans. You can't just divorce the builder from his creation and suggest one had nothing to do with the other. White Europeans built Western civilization just as Michelangelo built the pieta.
JonTron: "That isn't the core argument, the core argument is that no other nation would voluntarily change their demographics."
JonTron wants to avoid making a direct racial argument, so he steers it toward a generalized ethno-nationalism, which is of course sensible.
[4:10] Destiny: "The first thing you said doesn't really make sense, 'it was a European nation,' like in the late-1800's and the early 1900's Italians and Irishmen were discriminated against massively in coming to the United States."
JonTron: "They were still European though."
Exactly. Good job Jon. Two siblings fighting each other does not mean they stop being related by blood.
Destiny: "Yeah, but, I'm saying we didn't see it that way going back 150 years..."
Of course not, because the world was a different place back then. It was far less globalized. You couldn't hop on a plane and fly across the world. You couldn't hop on Skype and chat with someone in Japan. Europeans came into less contact with foreign races, so they could afford to focus on smaller ethnic differences among themselves. But if the whole of Europe was being invaded by Africans or Asians, the European peoples would quickly forget their differences and band together according to race, because race is so much deeper and more fundamental than ethnicity. Now that we live in a globalized world and entire continents have collective interests and threats, it is necessary to view ourselves in more generalized categories than we did 150 years ago.
[4:52] Destiny: "What I'm saying is that as time has gone on we've seen more and more people be included in the identity of what it means to be an American so it seems strange that today there's this massive pushback."
The vast majority of those being included in the American identity were still European. The United States was over 90% white for nearly its entire history. It is only in the last few decades that the demographics have begun shifting and Europeans are at risk of becoming a minority in the nation they built, which is why there is a massive pushback. It's not strange at all.
JonTron: "None of this would have been a problem if the extreme Left didn't bring identity politics to the fore."
No Jon, no... Identity politics was not the problem, and is not the problem. Everytime you argue that nations should have the right to preserve their demographics, you are arguing in favor of identity politics, and there is nothing wrong with that. The only problem with the Left's identity politics is that it excluded whites from participating. This is the point you are missing, and why you mistakenly blame "identity politics." Let me translate what you REALLY mean to say: "None of this would have been a problem if the extreme Left didn't bring anti-white politics to the fore." And that is absolutely true. If whites were not existentially threatened, they would have continued to champion abstract anglo-saxan principles, like individualism and civic nationalism. The Left always creates it's own pushback, by threatening the peoples fundamental values.
[5:45] Destiny: "When you say the Left started identity politics by assigning white and black to different areas, I would say that Jim Crow laws probably assigned white and black people to different areas more so than a BLM speaker or Obama talking about a racial issue."
JonTron fucked up by blaming identity politics, so Destiny sees an opportunity and pounces on him. Good argument from Destiny.
[6:25] JonTron: "And people still manage to create divisions between themselves."
Destiny: "Well because there still exists divisions. Black people are disproportionately overrepresented in prisons, women are blah blah blah..."
Again, JonTron fucks up, by trying to argue from a Leftist position of egalitarianism and individualist civic nationalism. And again, Destiny smacks him down by using the correct argument, the one that JonTron should have employed himself: that identity politics is valid!
[6:35] JonTron: "Okay but the argument is that white people caused them to be in those places, that they don't have any agency of their own."
JonTron moves a bit closer to the point.
Destiny: "Who do you think was responsible for Jim Crow laws? When you say something like 'well people are blaming white people which is absurd,' well if you go back 150, 200 years, yeah it was kinda white people that did it."
The problem with blaming the entire black condition on Jim Crows laws and institutional racism is that their condition has not been continuous since that time. Blacks were doing much better in the past than they are doing today, in terms of relative poverty, crime, illegitimacy, and so on. Blacks are worse off today than they were in the 1960's, which means the current state of the black community cannot be explained by Jim Crow or institutional racism alone.
There is no denying that these laws and conditions of the past have had some negative trickle-down effect on blacks, but it also cannot be denied that racial discrimination is not the only determining factor here. Like most things in life, it is a combination of Nature and Nurture, and to only focus on one side of the coin while ignoring the other is irresponsible. To deny the possibility of any biological differences between races is to effectively hold whites responsible for any and all differences that biological reality produces.
JonTron: "If you don't agree that whites are the primary cause of dysfunction in certain communities, like, it has to stem back to Jim Crow, it has to stem back to slavery, well, I don't know that these arguments can hold up decade after decade."
JonTron sort of gets at the argument I'm making here, but without specifics to back it up, this is a statement that is easily swatted away. You need to show that there was a period when blacks were doing better than they are today to show that some percent of the current black condition cannot be traced to the past, which opens the door to alternative explanations.
[9:00] Destiny: "The argument I'm getting at is that your environment shapes you a lot."
Sure, but your biology shapes you a lot as well, probably even more. There are profound aspects of personality and behavior that are fundamentally innate and not learned, like your degree of extroversion or introversion. There are studies done on twins who grew up in different environment showing remarkably similar outcomes as well. It's not either nature or nurture, it is both.
[10:05] Destiny: "I only want to speak in regard to the United States, because everything else is way more complicated. We'd get into the histories of countries and Islam and... that's all different countries and different topics."
This is something Destiny repeats many times in this debate, and of course he does so with the typical smug liberal condescension. "Look, I know all about the history and nuances of these various European nations, and it's all really very complicated, and I know just how unique and nuanced and complicated each situation is, unlike most Americans who are so ignorant of Europe and its history and politics, so it's better if we just avoid those nations entirely."
You can't just throw out dozens of potential historical parallels and examples by waving your hand and saying "it's complicated." You don't need to cover the entire history of Europe to make comparisons regarding multiculturalism and the effects of ethnic discrimination.
If you insist on only discussing US history, perhaps we could discuss the history of the Asian transcontinental-railroad laborers, who were clearly and significantly disadvantaged relative to whites in the past, and yet somehow were able to overcome that disadvantage enough to surpass whites in income today? Hmmm?
[10:42] JonTron: "You can't make the argument that whites should be ok with them becoming a minority in the countries that their ancestors built if it doesn't apply to other countries."
Good, he's getting back on track.
[13:10] Destiny: "We're not Japan, and I don't care about Japan, and also, Japan is one of the most racist countries in the world! It doesn't get much more racist than Japan. If you want to try to draw a parallel to another homogeneous society, Japan is like the worst go-to argument. It's also a dying country, they are a group of people who, because they refused to let anybody else in, are having horrible problems with their population. I don't think Japan is the country you want to point to as your model homogeneous society."
This is sort of an off-topic point, but is worth discussing nonetheless. Japan, as well as most Western nations, do not have a population crisis. If anything they are still massively overpopulated, and a decline in population would be a good thing! The only reason we think declining population is bad is because we've built a society that is based largely on debt and on welfare ponzi schemes that are unsustainable. The real problem is that wealthy, capitalist nations have lost a basic sense of community, we've come to view ourselves as individualist consumers, and so instead of having cohesive families that support each other through generations, we just expect government to take care of our family for us while we go chase the newest iphone. We have a cultural, economic, and spiritual crisis, NOT a population crisis.
JonTron: "I just disagree, I think it is a model society."
Bingo! Don't accept his premise that "racist = bad society." There are many things we can learn from Japan, many things we should emulate, their immigration and naturalization policies being one.
[15:10] JonTron: "They said on the DNC platform, 'white people need to shut up and listen,' now that's the kind of discourse we're looking at for the future of this country?"
Destiny: "Sure, I mean that sounds kind of bad.."
JonTron: "Kind of bad??"
Destiny: "Well, I mean, that's what I find myself saying to a lot of white people..."
Whoa. Alarms bells should be ringing in your head right now. And not just "wow this guy is a smug, condescending asshole" alarm bells either. Destiny just let something slip. But JonTron let's it pass because we've been conditioned to accept anti-white comments like this, to the point we've basically internalized them.
Just switch the race and see how the statement feels on a gut level: "I find myself saying to a lot of black people, 'you need to just shut up and listen to whites.'"
Whatever you feel when you read that is the appropriate response you ought to have to Destiny's statement. It is brow-beating whites. It is telling whites that their words and perspective don't matter, that they are objectively wrong and that non-whites are objectively right. It's telling whites they don't have the right to speak or even think for themselves until they swallow an anti-white narrative. It is a demand for collectively internalized guilt. We could devote an entire book to this one statement alone, but I have to move on.
JonTron: "This is the problem, when you get condescending people say 'fuck you, I don't want to listen,' and that's why you are seeing this big push back, I didn't start it."
JonTron does sense that this is the basic problem, that the root is here somewhere in Destiny's statement, but he hasn't internalized that what he is opposing is anti-white propaganda. He calls it "condescension" or "identity politics," which is fine and mostly accurate, but doesn't go deep enough.
Destiny: "I mean, we can't pretend the condescension only comes from one side, right?"
Wrong! It IS only coming from one side! It is obvious you are allowed to be racist towards whites, but you cannot be racist toward anyone else. And that is intitutionalized, that is the status quo, that is a fundamental part of our culture now. You do not have collective, institutional condescension coming down onto non-whites the way it is coming down onto whites. Whites have been conditioned to be absolutely terrified of being called a racist. Whites are terrified of being condescending toward any other race. The only time whites condescend other races is when they are trying to be SO virtuous and SO not-racist that they end up infantilizing other groups.
JonTron: "It does come from one side! Trump is a reaction to the retarded identity politics of the last several years."'
Great! JonTron again lands a solid punch with a solid argument. I would just repeat that "identity politics" is at this point a euphemism for "anti-white politics."
Destiny: "Half the people who were tweeting at me were literal Nazi's and white supremacists"
Oh God! LITERAL Nazi's! From 1933! White supremacy! Scary Buzzwords!
Destiny: "It's a political and race ideology, Communism is just... an economic... thing..."
wtflol... Destiny starts to go off the rails. Anyway, let's get back to the meat.
[19:06] Destiny: "We are in an unprecedented era of world peace."
JonTron: "That's about to change."
Destiny: "Why? Trump is the one gas-lighting! The idea that ISIS represents a threat to the Western world..."
Not ISIS. Radical Islam. And it does, clearly, represent a threat to the Western world. A threat that is growing to a large degree because we are letting millions of them in to Western nations. That isn't gas-lighting, it's not crazy talk, it is the demographic reality. The violence and crime we are seeing in Europe is just the very tip of the iceberg, these are only the first few years of the refugee crisis. As they continue to grow, and coalesce, and organize, and reproduce, and take over more and more European neighborhoods, you will see a legitimate, international crisis. The European birth-rate and the Muslim birth-rate are simply incompatible. European culture and values, and Muslim culture and values, are simply incompatible. We are importing division into Western nations. These refugees are not going to assimilate. They are going to form more and more independent, hostile neighborhoods with separate culture, customs, and laws, effectively splitting the nation in two. A recipe for disaster. That should be obvious to anyone. The only way you can think otherwise is if you live in a safe, white, liberal suburb and only consume safe, white, liberal mainstream media. Or if you've "shut up and listened" to enough anti-white narratives that you've internalized them.
They sort of go back and forth and rehash issues at this point, and JonTron does a pretty good job of making his case. Moving ahead.
[23:22] Destiny: "Why does it matter if a certain skin color is a minority?"
Ah, the classic "race is just skin color!" argument. No Destiny... Race is real. Race matters. Race is a part of identity. And it's not just skin deep.
It matters because I don't identify as a deracinated, rootless, individualist consumer the way you do. I've embraced and identified with a collective heritage, a collective culture, a collective people.
Race is just a wide-ranging extension of family. My family built this nation. And now my family is losing the thing we built. Imagine asking the owner of a business: "Why do you care if your family loses control of this business that your grandfather built, this business that has been in your family for generations?" It would strike us as an absurd question, and rightfully so.
[26:09] Destiny: "I would never go to Japan and tell them to change the way their country works"
The premise implicit in this is that all the millions of people pouring into the US is doing absolutely nothing to change the way the country works. All that's changing is "skin color." Laughable.
Destiny: "So you think there are people that risk rape, murder, and theft, leaving and fleeing Mexico to come to the United States whose ultimate goal is to secede it back to Mexico?"
No, it's not about explicitly seceding land back to Mexico. It is about turning American land into Mexico by proxy. They aren't doing it intentionally. When they come to America, they bring their language, their culture, and their race with them. That changes the country. And if you get enough Mexicans in an area, it will begin to resemble Mexico more than it will the United States. It isn't a conspiracy, it is simply the natural consequence of demographic change.
Demography is destiny.
JonTron: "It's not because brown people are worse. It's a matter of integration. If they immigrate, they need to integrate. But also, we don't need to take immigrants from incompatible nations."
Destiny: "But that's the beautiful thing about America, there is no incompatible place."
Wow, just wow.
Tactical nihilism at its best. This brand of extreme civic nationalism ignores what a nation truly is, and boils it down to meaningless abstractions. It does not view people as they are and ought to be, with a deep sense of identity and heritage, but as a meaningless abstraction called "Man," a featureless blob, a deracinated consumer. A nation is not an idea, but a people, and thus civic nationalism ignores precisely what makes a nation valuable and worth preserving in the first place.
In America we like to claim that it doesn't matter who you are so long as you believe in our shared values. But in truth this is backwards thinking, and turns the reality of the world on its head: because our shared values are a part of who we are. Culture is quite often downstream from race, in part because recent evolution has influenced behavioral patterns among races.
This is a kind of extension of the "blank slate" fallacy. Someone walks across the border into the US and the magic dirt suddenly wipes away all identity or culture or genetic differences and they become "Americans" with "American values." If I moved to Japan, I wouldn't suddenly be considered Japanese, because it is recognized that "Nation" and "Ethnicity" are connected in some way... a common sense reality which is denied only to Western nations. In truth, the majority of immigrants retain their original ethnic identity, and in many cases this identity includes values which directly contradict the host populations.
Destiny: "I mean, we're the most diverse nation on the planet dude! You can't argue with that. We're also arguably the most successful country on the planet. You're acting like we're 99% majority whites."
JonTron: "The country was something like 92% white in the 1950's."
Great job again from Jon. We are one of the most successful and influential nations on the planet, and we were heavily majority white for most of that history. The notion that "diversity" had anything to do with our success flies in the face of historical fact.
JonTron: "And when they become the majority, they will vote in their own interests, they won't vote in white people's interests."
Jackpot! A basic acknowledgment that different ethnic groups and different races have different interests. This is absolutely crucial to understand. Different groups have different interests. Those interests conflict, which means races and ethnicities conflict. Destiny now tries to deny this obvious fact.
Destiny: "Wait, what is a white American interest?"
Well, there are many. For example, whites tend to hold more libertarian ideals; they strongly favor a small, limited government, while every other race tends to favor a bigger government with more entitlements. As whites become a smaller and smaller minority of the nation, they will be outvoted by those who want bigger government, which is completely contradictory to the American ideal going back to the very founders of this nation, who espoused the importance of liberty and created a system with a constitution, bill of rights, and checks and balances to limit state power. This is a very transparent example of a foreign people coming in to the nation and fundamentally changing it in direct opposition to the native populations interests.
Destiny: "If that were true then why do red states leech off the federal government?"
Complete non sequitur, red herring.
We are talking about white interests. The majority of whites, and only the majority of whites, want smaller government. That has nothing to do with the relationship of Republican state governments to the federal government.
[39:14] JonTron: "On the flip side why is it bad for whites to remain a majority?"
Excellent, again. He flips the script and puts the onus on Destiny again to explain why white displacement is necessary. Destiny falls right into the trap.
Destiny: "Because you are talking about excluding potential labor, potential talent..."
Ah, the shekels. We have to let whites become a minority and lose control of the nation because... money.
Are we really in such desperate need of low-skilled, uneducated, poor families to come to America and pick our crops for us? That's why we need to permanently change the make-up and thus future of the nation, for cheap labor? Uh oh, I've got a fly on my hand, better chop my arm off!
Destiny: "Are you talking about barring immigration from people who are brown?"
Destiny: "Wait, so is the argument that Mexicans immigrating to the United States are going to turn it into Mexico?
Destiny: "If they were happy with Mexico, why would they come to the United States?"
To enjoy the safe, prosperous nation that white Europeans built?
JonTron: "Better handouts? lol"
Destiny: "Have you ever in your entire life drove through a neighborhood where there are construction crews working? If you were to talk to anybody in manual labor you would never hear the argument passed around that Mexicans are lazy and on welfare. They blah blah virtue signalling blah blah..."
How does an anecdote about driving through construction sites relate to his point about welfare at all? The welfare use of Mexican immigrants is determined by statistics, not by driving through a part of a city.
Destiny: "Immigration isn't even a predictor of crime in the United States."
And does that include Asian immigration as well? Because then I wouldn't expect it to.
Race is a predictor of crime, and immigration is correlated with race.
[45:00] Destiny: "Muh capitalism, muh free markets, muh cheap labor, muh shekels..."
JonTron: "Look, I don't think mass consumerism is the answer to our problems. I think there is something to be said for preserving a culture, for giving a nation a continuity..."
Destiny: "Do you think it's ok for a country to stifle it's growth a little bit in order to maintain a homogeneous cultural identity?"
JonTron: "Yeah, I think it's fine."
Destiny: "So you think lowering the standard of living is the answer to our problems? We should make everything more expensive?"
Here is a very important and fundamental difference between the alt-right and the standard libertarian position.
Would I be willing to accept a lower standard of living to live in a majority white nation? YES! Absolutely, yes!
If someone offered me a million dollars to spend the rest of my life living in Beijing, China, would I take it? NO! Of course, no!
I don't want to live in Beijing! And I care about much more than money! They don't share my language, they don't share my culture, they don't share my values, they don't share my race, they aren't a part of my heritage and family. And I don't want to live in Mexico either. And there is nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't make you some sort of evil racist to want to be around your own kind, to want to be within your own culture, in the civilization your ancestors built.
What is insane is that anyone thinks differently, that we've been so conditioned to be rootless, selfish, individualist consumers that we would throw all those formerly cherished values away just to have cheaper stuff in our homes. How fucking depressing is that?
Just listen to yourself, Destiny! Talking about labor and markets and ipads, at the expense of everything else... Is that really what you value as a human being?
And by the way, you are absolutely lying to yourself if you think our wealthy, capitalist society will remain a wealthy, capitalist society even after whites are a minority and we've imported millions of people from the third world. The premise is ludicrous. The more the US LOOKS like Brazil, the more the US will FUNCTION like Brazil. Demography is destiny.
This has gotten quite long, and I'm not even half-way done with the video, but I'm going to stop here. JonTron did a decent job of replying to Destiny, but he was at a clear disadvantage. Progressivism is entrenched in society. They control the media, academia, government, corporate culture, everything. Someone like Destiny has spent most of his life steeped in Leftist ideology, fed hundreds of facts, statistics, counter-arguments, cliches. The Alt-Right, on the other hand, is a fairly new reactionary movement, and it sounds like JonTron in particular is a bit new to these ideas. He hasn't internalized the philosophy and hasn't memorized the counter-arguments, facts, statistics, etc. Still, it took a lot of balls to get on a livestream and debate this sort of thing, and this is what we have to do if we are going to move forward. It's not enough to sit in an echo-chamber and larp. We have to speak up, we have to take risks, we have to redpill normies, one at a time. I applaud JonTron for standing up and making his voice heard.